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kT
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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery wrote:
| Quote: |
Pat Flannery wrote:
They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they
whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible
realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies
couldn't handle.
Whoops, wrong button; "send" instead of "spellcheck". 
Drop a crewman.
Reduction in weight by less need for life support and savings on Delta V
propellants for the whole mission due to reduced overall spacecraft mass
should bring it back on line again.
|
Sure, making it unmanned should do the trick.
BTW : the spacecraft I am proposing is called the Delta V.
The stick can't be saved. We need to get us some real lightweight
commercial ISS flyers on both EELVs, both the Delta IV Medium and the
Atlas V *without any SRBs*, as quickly as is possible, and then the
unmanned requirement for the heavy lift component makes the single SSME
SSTO flight test demonstration is eminently doable. We've finessed it :
http://cosmic.lifeform.org/?=302
From now on I'm replacing the ET acronym on my BLOB with SPS. Sure, I'd
love to see the 10 meter tank somewhere down the line, but it sure as
hell isn't having any foam or SRBs, it will be all clustered SSTO.
Solids have their place : crew escape and landing.
--
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Greg D. Moore (Strider)
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"Brian Gaff" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2hD5i.25559$Ro3.5559@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
Erm, surely its precisely when you need to know, as who wants to bend
metal only to find you wasted a ton of money on it up to that point.
|
Well, since weight creep seems to be fairly endemic throughout the process,
my concern is they'll cut 3K now.. build the first prototype, find
themselves another 3K overweight... and find that even harder to cut.
| Quote: |
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote in
message news:1MB5i.18914$3P3.9661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message
news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de...
jg wrote:
snip
It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23"
Check the Google cache.
Check out this link:
http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html
Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I
don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction
in requirements.
Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and
you haven't even bent metal yet.
Danny Deger
--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html
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--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html |
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Greg D. Moore (Strider)
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"Herb Schaltegger" <herb.schaltegger@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f36u2d02p26@news3.newsguy.com...
| Quote: |
Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project
ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR
(Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet.
|
Oh, I'm not surprised. Just worried that once they start bending metal they
find even MORE weight.
Oh well, we'll see what happens.
| Quote: |
I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts
(usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts
plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things
that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors,
fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize).
Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated
therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and
reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing
acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed.
Danny Deger
--
Fear is the path to the dark side...
Fear leads to anger...
Anger leads to hate...
Hate leads to banjos...
Banjos lead to suffering! |
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hallerb@aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On May 25, 11:57?pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
<mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Herb Schaltegger" <herb.schalteg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f36u2d02p26@news3.newsguy.com...
Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project
ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR
(Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet.
Oh, I'm not surprised. Just worried that once they start bending metal they
find even MORE weight.
Oh well, we'll see what happens.
I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts
(usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts
plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things
that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors,
fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize).
Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated
therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and
reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing
acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed.
Danny Deger
--
Fear is the path to the dark side...
Fear leads to anger...
Anger leads to hate...
Hate leads to banjos...
Banjos lead to suffering!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
nasa quit bending metal on manned launcers a lifetime ago. they prefer
to study spend lots of bucks and keep the shuttle going.
who here thinks the shuttles end date will get changed? unless it
kills again? kill more and the program is instantly poof gone |
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BradGuth
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On May 25, 8:56 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
<mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Brian Gaff" <bria...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2hD5i.25559$Ro3.5559@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Erm, surely its precisely when you need to know, as who wants to bend
metal only to find you wasted a ton of money on it up to that point.
Well, since weight creep seems to be fairly endemic throughout the process,
my concern is they'll cut 3K now.. build the first prototype, find
themselves another 3K overweight... and find that even harder to cut.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - bria...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" <mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> wrote in
messagenews:1MB5i.18914$3P3.9661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Danny Deger" <dannyde...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Alfred S. Dert" <asd...@web.de> wrote in message
news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de...
jg wrote:
snip
It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23"
Check the Google cache.
Check out this link:
http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html
Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I
don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction
in requirements.
Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and
you haven't even bent metal yet.
Danny Deger
--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.comhttp://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html
--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
But they supposedly had a 60:1 of rocket/payload ratio, and even at a
rather horrific 30% inert GLOW had managed to get their 50 tonnes into
orbiting our moon in extremely short order (meaning fast trip). What
the heck ever happened to that old hocus-pocus rocket technology that
was built like a German Third Reich tank, except far more reliable
than any tank?
-
Brad Guth |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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hallerb@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On May 25, 11:57?pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> wrote:
"Herb Schaltegger" <herb.schalteg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f36u2d02p26@news3.newsguy.com...
Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project
ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR
(Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet.
Oh, I'm not surprised. Just worried that once they start bending metal they
find even MORE weight.
Oh well, we'll see what happens.
I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts
(usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts
plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things
that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors,
fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize).
Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated
therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and
reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing
acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed.
Danny Deger
--
Fear is the path to the dark side...
Fear leads to anger...
Anger leads to hate...
Hate leads to banjos...
Banjos lead to suffering!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
nasa quit bending metal on manned launcers a lifetime ago. they prefer
to study spend lots of bucks and keep the shuttle going.
who here thinks the shuttles end date will get changed? unless it
kills again? kill more and the program is instantly poof gone
|
We all want to replace the shuttle, but not before it finishes its job.
The shuttle isn't soaking up all the second generation funds, ESAS is.
We just want quick cheap lightweight capsules on both EELVs, and we want
some experience flying all liquid launch vehicles, and then we want to
move in a shuttle like direction, with SSME powered SSTO demonstration.
Sub-orbital X-33 like demonstration makes no sense, we just want to
brute force it with what we have, and we can integrate all of our
development goals into one single demonstration program, by the use of
creative lateral thinking. For example, simply returning the engine in
the nosecone unit, and designing the oxygen tank for immediate orbital
retrofit, incorporating second generation propulsion development and
integrating condensed matter physics development into the solar and
thermal, and then using the ISS for preliminary closed ecological life
support system development, making the entire system a demonstration of
space colonization techniques, and moving entire arrays of habitats out
to the moon, the moons of Mars and Ceres, unmanned, using ion thrusters.
This is the rational logical approach to space colonization, which is
also mutually applicable to Earth systems science and global warming.
We are starting over from scratch, but from a perspective of excellence.
We have excellent but expensive assets to work with, so the very first
order of business is to use those assets to develop affordable systems.
Given the state of the planet Earth, can can't afford to not do this.
VSE and ESAS are not affordable. We can't afford them anymore. Period.
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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Danny Deger
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message
news:mEi5i.73$wR3.3@newsfe03.lga...
The John Young thread is back. I am a now a member of nasaspaceflight.com
and find it a good source for Orion/Ares information.
I had the honor of working with Capt Young more than a little and if he
thinks the weight problem is a major problem, it is probably a major
problem. He has worked MANY aircraft and spacecraft designs and knows the
difference between normal weight problems that can be fixed and ones that
will need a major redesign (e.g. a different booster) and/or change of basic
requirments (e.g. carry less people).
Danny Deger |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Danny Deger wrote:
If you just mention single stage to orbit (SSTO) over there those people
go totally psychotic in short order. I got banned in record time there.
| Quote: |
I had the honor of working with Capt Young more than a little and if he
thinks the weight problem is a major problem, it is probably a major
problem. He has worked MANY aircraft and spacecraft designs and knows
the difference between normal weight problems that can be fixed and ones
that will need a major redesign (e.g. a different booster) and/or change
of basic requirments (e.g. carry less people).
|
If you've lost John Young, you've lost. Clearly they've lost John Young.
Do you think John Young could stand eight gees?
He's my first choice for SSTO pilot.
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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Brian Thorn
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 17:00:54 +0200, "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de>
wrote:
| Quote: |
They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked
it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities
and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle.
nasaspaceflight.com is not NASA.
From http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/about/ :
"The website of NASASpaceFlight.com is maintained by a group of
professional journalists and webmasters. "
|
Holy crow... if they're the professionals, I'd hate to see the
amateurs. They need a spell-checker, grammar-checker, and
proof-reader, pronto. I like the site, it is interesting and has some
knowledgable participants, but they really need to step back sometimes
and say to themselves, "so what if this news gets out a half hour
later, let's proof read this story first..."
Brian |
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kT
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Brian Thorn wrote:
| Quote: |
On Fri, 25 May 2007 17:00:54 +0200, "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de
wrote:
They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked
it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities
and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle.
nasaspaceflight.com is not NASA.
From http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/about/ :
"The website of NASASpaceFlight.com is maintained by a group of
professional journalists and webmasters. "
Holy crow... if they're the professionals, I'd hate to see the
amateurs. They need a spell-checker, grammar-checker, and
proof-reader, pronto. I like the site, it is interesting and has some
knowledgable participants, but they really need to step back sometimes
and say to themselves, "so what if this news gets out a half hour
later, let's proof read this story first..."
|
I can't see anything wrong with designing rockets online.
It destroys the launch pad, big crater, so what?
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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Derek Lyons
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote:
Said announcement being notable by its absence.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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Derek Lyons
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I
don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction
in requirements.
Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you
haven't even bent metal yet.
|
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Derek Lyons wrote:
| Quote: |
"Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote:
jg wrote:
"kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message
Check it out :
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=5
They can't handle reality, so they just edit it out.
What was the subject of the thread?
It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23"
Said announcement being notable by its absence.
|
Nazi's don't admit anything.
--
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http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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Pat Flannery
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Derek Lyons wrote:
| Quote: |
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
|
Luckily ve had der Germans at verk, and they overbuilt the Saturn V
because they knew that was bound to happen.
The thing that really grew in size and capabilities was the LM.
Pat |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery wrote:
| Quote: |
Derek Lyons wrote:
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
Luckily ve had der Germans at verk, and they overbuilt the Saturn V
because they knew that was bound to happen.
The thing that really grew in size and capabilities was the LM.
|
Yes, but think it through. von Braun deferred to his engineers and the
simulations, on the high energy upper stages (J2) and the rendezvous.
Griffin is just adding the steroids (SRBs), it's still Apollo.
We are considerably more sophisticated than that now.
We don't need a truck, we need a taxi.
We can't afford another Apollo.
http://cosmic.lifeform.org/?p=302
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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