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Fred J. McCall
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 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote:
:
:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :How about we just ditch LEO/HEO/Lunar manned spaceflight, and get around
:> :to exploring our solar system?
:> :We can do that on a budget, and learn great stuff.
:> :
:>
:> So what 'great stuff' do we learn that we need to know if we're not
:> going?
:>
:
:We just might be going...say a few decades down the line.
:Impatience is the eternal curse of America.
:"Want it now! Want it right now!" is the perfect description of a
:spoiled four-year-old.
:
So we can wait a few decades down the line to acquire the data. Don't
be so impatient, Pat...
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn |
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <35405$465ead66$cef8887a$4070@TEKSAVVY.COM>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
Come January 2009 with a new administration takes power, unless NASA and
the people around it start to make much positive noise about extending
the shuttle's lifetime, extenting shuttle will be hard to justify.
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Especially since by that time, early parts of the process of closing down
shuttle operations will already be underway. By then, it won't be a
matter of just sending a memo saying "oops, change of plans, don't proceed
with the shutdown" -- continuing shuttle flights will require a sizable
up-front investment to rebuild capabilities, perform deferred maintenance,
re-start work on orbiter and ground-support updates (needed because the
older equipment is becoming impossible to maintain), etc. etc.
Especially since a new administration won't make such a decision in
January. NASA *might* get to the top of their to-do list by July, and a
major reversal of policy might actually be devised, agreed, and announced
by December... by which time the organizational pipelines will be emptying
and the shutdown will be far advanced, even if there are a few flights yet
to be done.
And especially since this is not a partisan issue, so it's unlikely that
there *would* be a major reversal of policy. Replacing the shuttle with
CEV etc. has wide support; it's not just a Bush idea or a Republican idea.
It may arguably be a *dumb* idea, but it's not going to be discarded now.
| Quote: |
If the government set a clear goal of going to mars, then NASA could
then make specific steps that would be needed to succeed in that
endeavour...
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The government *has* set a clear goal: return to the Moon. So far, NASA
is not showing any great signs of the sort of decisive, systematic,
well-planned activity you seem to feel that such a goal would produce.
Instead, we're seeing the fumblings of an arthritic bureaucracy handed a
task that's basically beyond it.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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Henry Spencer
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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In article <135tdudkl9vhkea@corp.supernews.com>,
Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
How about we just ditch LEO/HEO/Lunar manned spaceflight, and get around
to exploring our solar system?
|
The logical first step in that is resuming exploration of the Moon. Oddly
enough, that is best done with manned spaceflight -- we're past the point
of being able to benefit a lot from simple, cheap unmanned missions to the
lunar surface.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net |
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alain245@sympatico.ca
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On Jun 1, 1:14 am, h...@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <135tdudkl9vh...@corp.supernews.com>,
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
How about we just ditch LEO/HEO/Lunar manned spaceflight, and get around
to exploring our solar system?
The logical first step in that is resuming exploration of the Moon. Oddly
enough, that is best done with manned spaceflight -- we're past the point
of being able to benefit a lot from simple, cheap unmanned missions to the
lunar surface.
|
I agree that we are past the point of being able to benefit a lot from
simple
cheap unmanned missions to the lunar surface. But we are not yet past
the
point of being able to benefit from semi-simple semi-cheap unmanned
missions
to Mars, Titan, Europa, etc.
I think that the logical first step in exploring the solar system is
to first do the
easiest parts (read cheapest). Sending more people to the moon before
probes
to Europa has more to do about bravado and the human psyche than about
maximizing the scientific return.
That said, I like bravado and I have a human psyche, so I like the
idea
of sending humans back to the moon, as long as it is done using Yankee
tax dollars and not mine  I think we are close to the point where
sending
people would be the next logical step, but I don't think we are quite
there
yet. So yes preparing human expeditions makes sense but I think it
merits a lower priority than it now has, and robotic exploration
merits
a higher priority.
Alain Fournier |
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Rand Simberg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 15:32:59 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Brian
Gaff" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:
| Quote: |
It makes you realise what amazing designs have gone before really.
Besides, if I may proffer my few penneth here, this vision is a Shrub
creation, and thus, I'd imagine that some in Nasa are expecting it to be cut
back or cancelled buy the democrat who gets in next time...
|
There's nothing wrong with the vision. I find it both amusing and
dismaying that so many (apparently ignorant) people have so much
trouble distinguishing between the vision, and Mike Griffin's chosen
means of implementing it. |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Rand Simberg wrote:
| Quote: |
It makes you realise what amazing designs have gone before really.
Besides, if I may proffer my few penneth here, this vision is a Shrub
creation, and thus, I'd imagine that some in Nasa are expecting it to be cut
back or cancelled buy the democrat who gets in next time...:-)
There's nothing wrong with the vision. I find it both amusing and
dismaying that so many (apparently ignorant) people have so much
trouble distinguishing between the vision, and Mike Griffin's chosen
means of implementing it.
|
I had a vision once too, but my reality based vision was of 6.5 billion
mammals glued right down to the surface of the planet Earth by gravity.
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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kT
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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alain245@sympatico.ca wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jun 1, 1:14 am, h...@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote:
In article <135tdudkl9vh...@corp.supernews.com>,
Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
How about we just ditch LEO/HEO/Lunar manned spaceflight, and get around
to exploring our solar system?
The logical first step in that is resuming exploration of the Moon. Oddly
enough, that is best done with manned spaceflight -- we're past the point
of being able to benefit a lot from simple, cheap unmanned missions to the
lunar surface.
I agree that we are past the point of being able to benefit a lot from
simple
cheap unmanned missions to the lunar surface. But we are not yet past
the
point of being able to benefit from semi-simple semi-cheap unmanned
missions
to Mars, Titan, Europa, etc.
I think that the logical first step in exploring the solar system is
to first do the
easiest parts (read cheapest). Sending more people to the moon before
probes
to Europa has more to do about bravado and the human psyche than about
maximizing the scientific return.
That said, I like bravado and I have a human psyche, so I like the
idea
of sending humans back to the moon, as long as it is done using Yankee
tax dollars and not mine I think we are close to the point where
sending
people would be the next logical step, but I don't think we are quite
there
yet. So yes preparing human expeditions makes sense but I think it
merits a lower priority than it now has, and robotic exploration
merits
a higher priority.
|
Really, one would rationally think we would have had Phobos and Deimos
sample return missions by now. These things are like thought gaps.
Ditto Ceres and the Moon, but at least we have closed the thought gaps
there, with the lunar reconnaissance orbiter and the Dawn mission.
Mars is covered now too. We need close the Earth thought gap soon.
--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html |
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Rand Simberg
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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On Thu, 31 May 2007 11:52:51 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat
Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:
| Quote: |
kT wrote:
Maybe your's isn't, but mine is. You're still living in the 50's.
Show me a technology that gives us a order of magnitude increase in
ISP...because if you can't do that, all you're doing is blowing
rose-smelling farts out of your ass while you're dreaming.
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Nonsense. Isp is not the problem. |
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Rand Simberg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 06:47:25 -0700, in a place far, far away,
"alain245@sympatico.ca" <alain245@sympatico.ca> made the phosphor on
my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
| Quote: |
I think that the logical first step in exploring the solar system is
to first do the
easiest parts (read cheapest). Sending more people to the moon before
probes
to Europa has more to do about bravado and the human psyche than about
maximizing the scientific return.
|
You assume, without basis, that science is the primary purpose that
NASA exists. |
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Jeff Findley
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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"Derek Lyons" <fairwater@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:465fd06c.91365125@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I
don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction
in requirements.
Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you
haven't even bent metal yet.
Yeah. Very few programs ever have weight problems during development
- think how much trouble NASA would have been in had the CSM and LEM
turned out to be overweight.
Oh, wait. They did.
|
Luckily the Saturn V program didn't believe the initial numbers for the CSM
and LEM, so von Braun added quite a hefty margin to the Saturn V design, so
the Apollo program was successful in the end.
Still, there was a weight reduction program needed, especially for the LEM.
Apollo 11 was the first flight that was considered capable of safely landing
and returning to the CSM.
Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919) |
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Pat Flannery
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:16 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
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Jeff Findley wrote:
| Quote: |
Still, there was a weight reduction program needed, especially for the LEM.
Apollo 11 was the first flight that was considered capable of safely landing
and returning to the CSM.
That's still my favorite episode of "From The Earth To The Moon". |
"It'll be easy! Anyone can build something like this with all the time
we have!"
So the Grumman Ironworks turns out something about as sturdily built as
a beer can. :-)
Pat |
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alain245@sympatico.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On Jun 2, 4:06 pm, simberg.interglo...@org.trash (Rand Simberg) wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 06:47:25 -0700, in a place far, far away,
"alain...@sympatico.ca" <alain...@sympatico.ca> made the phosphor on
my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
I think that the logical first step in exploring the solar system is
to first do the
easiest parts (read cheapest). Sending more people to the moon before
probes
to Europa has more to do about bravado and the human psyche than about
maximizing the scientific return.
You assume, without basis, that science is the primary purpose that
NASA exists.
|
Is there any reason why you think that I assume that? We were
discussing the exploration of the solar system not the purpose of
NASA.
Alain Fournier |
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Rand Simberg
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Th |
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On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:31:32 -0700, in a place far, far away,
"alain245@sympatico.ca" <alain245@sympatico.ca> made the phosphor on
my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
| Quote: |
On Jun 2, 4:06 pm, simberg.interglo...@org.trash (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 06:47:25 -0700, in a place far, far away,
"alain...@sympatico.ca" <alain...@sympatico.ca> made the phosphor on
my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
I think that the logical first step in exploring the solar system is
to first do the
easiest parts (read cheapest). Sending more people to the moon before
probes
to Europa has more to do about bravado and the human psyche than about
maximizing the scientific return.
You assume, without basis, that science is the primary purpose that
NASA exists.
Is there any reason why you think that I assume that?
|
Ummmm...Yes. Your response.
| Quote: |
We were discussing the exploration of the solar system not the
purpose of NASA.
|
I didn't know that was the subject of discussion, at least based on
the post title, and original topic. |
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Jeff Findley
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T |
|
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"Pat Flannery" <flanner@daktel.com> wrote in message
news:13693tbdg46t66e@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
Jeff Findley wrote:
Still, there was a weight reduction program needed, especially for the
LEM. Apollo 11 was the first flight that was considered capable of safely
landing and returning to the CSM.
That's still my favorite episode of "From The Earth To The Moon".
"It'll be easy! Anyone can build something like this with all the time we
have!"
So the Grumman Ironworks turns out something about as sturdily built as a
beer can.
|
The LEM pressure vessel walls were pretty thin in places. It wouldn't have
taken much to accidentally put a hole right through the thing.
There is a summary of the LEM weight issues here:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/lmweight.htm
Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919) |
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