Defense Industry Defense Industry    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Threa Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          Defense Industry Forum Index -> Defense Industry View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message kT Guest Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I Threa Check it out : http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=5 They can't handle reality, so they just edit it out. -- Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator : http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor jg Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T What was the subject of the thread? jg "kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message news:mEi5i.73$wR3.3@newsfe03.lga... Quote: Check it out : http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=5 They can't handle reality, so they just edit it out. -- Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator : http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alfred S. Dert Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T jg wrote: Quote: "kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message Check it out : http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=5 They can't handle reality, so they just edit it out. What was the subject of the thread? It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Danny Deger Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... Quote: jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Danny Deger Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Greg D. Moore (Strider) Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T "Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... Quote: "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. Quote: Danny Deger -- Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor kT Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: Quote: It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle. -- Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator : http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Alfred S. Dert Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T kT wrote: Quote: They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle. nasaspaceflight.com is not NASA. From http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/about/ : "The website of NASASpaceFlight.com is maintained by a group of professional journalists and webmasters. " Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Herb Schaltegger Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: Quote: "Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR (Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet. I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts (usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors, fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize). Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed. Quote: Danny Deger -- Fear is the path to the dark side... Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to banjos... Banjos lead to suffering! Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor kT Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Alfred S. Dert wrote: Quote: kT wrote: They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle. nasaspaceflight.com is not NASA. From http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/about/ : "The website of NASASpaceFlight.com is maintained by a group of professional journalists and webmasters. " That's what I said : 'NASA weenies'. You need to work on your critical reading skills. I can suggest many reputable theoretical physicists for private consultation and therapy. -- Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator : http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor kT Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Herb Schaltegger wrote: Quote: Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: "Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR (Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet. I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts (usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors, fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize). Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed. Which is why SSTO enthusiasts are so enthusiastic about single stage to orbit space flight. SSTO is by definition overweight. It's a challenge. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Brian Gaff Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Erm, surely its precisely when you need to know, as who wants to bend metal only to find you wasted a ton of money on it up to that point. Brian -- Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff' in the display name may be lost. Blind user, so no pictures please! "Greg D. Moore (Strider)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote in message news:1MB5i.18914$3P3.9661@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... Quote: "Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. Danny Deger -- Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Brian Gaff Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T It makes you realise what amazing designs have gone before really. Besides, if I may proffer my few penneth here, this vision is a Shrub creation, and thus, I'd imagine that some in Nasa are expecting it to be cut back or cancelled buy the democrat who gets in next time...:-) Brian -- Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff' in the display name may be lost. Blind user, so no pictures please! "kT" <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote in message news:i0D5i.7$Et5.4@newsfe06.lga... Quote: Herb Schaltegger wrote: Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: "Danny Deger" <dannydeger@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4656cef8$0$8933$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... "Alfred S. Dert" <asdert@web.de> wrote in message news:f3616h$rt2$1@online.de... jg wrote: snip It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR (Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet. I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts (usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors, fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize). Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed. Which is why SSTO enthusiasts are so enthusiastic about single stage to orbit space flight. SSTO is by definition overweight. It's a challenge. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Danny Deger Guest Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T "Herb Schaltegger" <herb.schaltegger@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f36u2d02p26@news3.newsguy.com... snip Quote: Hate to break it to you, but just about EVERY modern aerospace project ends up overweight right about the time you start approaching PDR (Preliminary Design Review) and then the project goes on a huge diet. I think this is a result of over-optimistic initial design concepts (usually made with pretty CAD-generated color 3D models of generic parts plugged into one another like virtual Legos) that ignore some things that end up being very important down the line - things like connectors, fasteners and couplings (which add a lot more weight than you realize). Those initial pretty picture models (and weight estimates generated therefrom) also ignore stuff like structural stiffeners and reinforcements that end up being required once launch/landing acceleration, acoustic and vibrational analysis studies are performed. Well said. When I worked on Orion there were large "management reserves" in the early program for cost, weight, and schedule. For example if the engineer's estimate for weight was 40,000, the official estimate for weight became 44,000 to help make up for the things you discribe. Also, keep in mind each potential vendor when the program is being competed is graded to a large extent on weight. When I worked for Rockwell Missile Systems, we would sometime tell bold face lies about the the estimated weight of a projected missile to get the contract. We used to say (to ourselves) we would build the missile out of "non-obtainium" to make the weight limit. I do hope Orion/Ares I can fix its weight problems wihout too big of a hit on the requirements. One "easy" fix would be to take the crew back down to 4. The crew went from 4 to 6 about the time I left the program and I recall throw weight to orbit being a major concern if we went to 6 people. It looks like it was a big problem. Danny Deger > Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T kT wrote: Quote: Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: It was "John Young: Ares I won't work, announcement coming May 23" Check the Google cache. Check out this link: http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/000114.html Aviation week is stating Orion is already 3,000 pounds over weight. I don't see how NASA can fix this weight problem without a major reduction in requirements. Yeah, generally not a good sign when you start 3000 lbs overweight and you haven't even bent metal yet. They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle. Back to top   Ads Advertising Sponsor Pat Flannery Guest Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: NASAspaceflight.com - Censors the John Young - Ares I T Pat Flannery wrote: Quote: They were doing some major whacking on that thread before they whacked it completely. People were just bringing up too many horrible realities and too many creative solutions that the NASA weenies couldn't handle. Whoops, wrong button; "send" instead of "spellcheck". Drop a crewman. Reduction in weight by less need for life support and savings on Delta V propellants for the whole mission due to reduced overall spacecraft mass should bring it back on line again. 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