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Jim Oberg
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/science/14station.html
Reuters, "Major computer problem looms over space station"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070614/us_nm/space_shuttle_dc_43
USA Today, "Space station computer failure tilts NASA mission"
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2007-06-13-atlantis-walk-two_N.htm?csp=34
The Russian computers on the International Space Station have suffered a
massive failure that, if not fixed, could require the crew to abandon the
orbital laboratory, a NASA official said Wednesday.
Associated Press, "Russian computer glitch on space station may extend
shuttle's stay"
http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6656441&nav=2FH5
Florida Today, "Computers fail on space station"
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070614/NEWS02/306140004 |
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John Doe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Those media articles you pointed to are so full of exagerations.
Is there not a Progress docked ? And they also have a Soyuz that can, in
a bind, perform station orientation. They did it a few times on Mir.
If they leave the station, it means that its attitude control has become
uncontrolled. And it probably means that later on, station might be
thumbling and that means that docking to station would become nearly
impossible.
I really do not understand why the media want to sensationalise this by
focusing on crews possibly leaving the station.
It would be more interesting to get real details on the actual failure
and what they have attempted to do so far. |
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Brian Gaff
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Is it not strange how the press latch onto one comment and never actually
say much about the rest of it.
If I was going to find this problem, I'd first attempt to make sure that all
power and configs were as when it was all working, ie, take out the s3/s4
power, and any other config changes you can actually change, then if it all
works, add a factor, reboot and see if it works. If it all falls over after
one particular change, you can then look at the change and see what the
problem actually is.
However if the machines are in fact in some way damaged, and cannot reboot
even in the old config of power etc, they you may have a problem. If any one
of them can be made to work, you can buy time and get more spares. We do not
know what spares the Russians have on station after all.My feelings if their
is no damage is some form of electronic radiation or dirty power, or rf
getting in via power.
I remember them having interference pick up on hand mikes after the power
reconfig, and it does make me think a spiky power converter might be some
place on the truss.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Jim Oberg" <joberg@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4670e1a6$0$7987$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
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George
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:h17ci.4782$p8.84@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
Is it not strange how the press latch onto one comment and never actually
say much about the rest of it.
If I was going to find this problem, I'd first attempt to make sure that
all power and configs were as when it was all working, ie, take out the
s3/s4 power, and any other config changes you can actually change, then
if it all works, add a factor, reboot and see if it works. If it all
falls over after one particular change, you can then look at the change
and see what the problem actually is.
However if the machines are in fact in some way damaged, and cannot
reboot even in the old config of power etc, they you may have a problem.
If any one of them can be made to work, you can buy time and get more
spares. We do not know what spares the Russians have on station after
all.My feelings if their is no damage is some form of electronic
radiation or dirty power, or rf getting in via power.
I remember them having interference pick up on hand mikes after the
power reconfig, and it does make me think a spiky power converter might
be some place on the truss.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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According to NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/main/index.html
"Russian flight controllers will be working overnight to resolve a problem
with the Russian segment computers that provide backup attitude control and
orbital altitude adjustments. For now, the station's control moment
gyroscopes are handling attitude control, with the shuttle's propulsion
providing backup."
If the Russian computers provide "backup attitude control and orbital
attitude adjustments", and if they cannot be repaired, it seems to me that
the main control system should be able to handle the load until they get
another set of computers up there on the next scheduled re-supply. Just my
two cents worth.
George |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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"John Doe" <jdoe@doe.org> wrote
| Quote: |
Those media articles you pointed to are so full of exagerations.
Is there not a Progress docked ? And they also have a Soyuz that can, in a
bind, perform station orientation. They did it a few times on Mir.
|
The Progress engines are controlled by the computers that had crashed.
The Soyuz was able to steer the Mir in emergencies, briefly -- but
check your notes, ISS is much, MUCH more massive than Mir.
Some signs of recovery this morning -- question is, how enduring will it be? |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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"George" <george@yourservice.com> wrote
| Quote: |
If the Russian computers provide "backup attitude control and orbital
attitude adjustments", and if they cannot be repaired, it seems to me that
the main control system should be able to handle the load until they get
another set of computers up there on the next scheduled re-supply. Just
my two cents worth.
|
NASA chose a sloppy, misleading word. The propulsion provides REQUIRED
supplemental attitude control. The CMGs reqire periodic desturation using
thrusters,
most dramatically at shuttle undocking. Also, thrusters are needed for
altitude
adjustments and for debris avoidance burns. |
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Craig Fink
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Jim Oberg wrote:
| Quote: |
"George" <george@yourservice.com> wrote
If the Russian computers provide "backup attitude control and orbital
attitude adjustments", and if they cannot be repaired, it seems to me
that the main control system should be able to handle the load until they
get
another set of computers up there on the next scheduled re-supply. Just
my two cents worth.
NASA chose a sloppy, misleading word. The propulsion provides REQUIRED
supplemental attitude control. The CMGs reqire periodic desturation using
thrusters,
most dramatically at shuttle undocking. Also, thrusters are needed for
altitude
adjustments and for debris avoidance burns.
|
I believe NASA already has the software or at least the algorithms to do
attitude maneuvers on the CMGs alone. If this capability is up and running,
I would think they could desaturate the CMGs by maneuvering between two or
more attitudes keeping them reasonably desaturated. |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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You're right, some new CMG control algorithms have been flight tested --
and I should call the company that sent out the boastful press release
a few months ago to see if they think they can do ALL required attitude
control...
It could happen...
"Craig Fink" <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote
| Quote: |
I believe NASA already has the software or at least the algorithms to do
attitude maneuvers on the CMGs alone. If this capability is up and
running,
I would think they could desaturate the CMGs by maneuvering between two or
more attitudes keeping them reasonably desaturated. |
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Danny Deger
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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"Jim Oberg" <joberg@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4670e1a6$0$7987$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
Is it possible the new power system fried the Russian computers and they
need to be replaced? Any spares on board? Can the gyros stay unsaturated
long enough to control until replacements are sent up?
What ever it is, I think NASA and the Russians will fix the problem. Good
luck to all involved.
Danny Deger |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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This morning a pair of computers was brought up, and it ran seven minutes
before crashing again.
"Jim Oberg" <joberg@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4671436e$0$4718$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
| Quote: |
"John Doe" <jdoe@doe.org> wrote
Those media articles you pointed to are so full of exagerations.
Is there not a Progress docked ? And they also have a Soyuz that can, in
a bind, perform station orientation. They did it a few times on Mir.
The Progress engines are controlled by the computers that had crashed.
The Soyuz was able to steer the Mir in emergencies, briefly -- but
check your notes, ISS is much, MUCH more massive than Mir.
Some signs of recovery this morning -- question is, how enduring will it
be?
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JF Mezei
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Jim Oberg wrote:
| Quote: |
The Progress engines are controlled by the computers that had crashed.
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But can't Progress be controlled directly by the ground, bypassing the
station computers ? |
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John Doe
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Danny Deger wrote:
| Quote: |
Is it possible the new power system fried the Russian computers and they
need to be replaced?
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Highly doubtful. There is a power transfer module on the Z1 truss (on
top of Unity). As I recall (but faded memory), this also converts
voltages from US to Russian segment voltage levels.
Secondly, the media reports are not trustable enough to base our
judgement on the word "reboot". This may mean that the hardware is
fried, it could mean that the hardware works fine but the OS won't load
(disk corruption etc), or it may mean that the computers are up and
running, but the application program that does the attitude control
won't start (or starts up but does nothing).
Consider this: what really changes is that on both sides of the station,
they changed the attitude control parameters now that the mass of the
station is higher with different centre of gravity. Not sure if this was
a new version of software applied, or whether the crews added more
parameters to describe the new station config, or whether that config
had been loaded a long time ago and was just activated.
We have way too little information to really know what really happened.
(and I really wish I lightning hadn't struck in the backyard so I could
listen to NASA TV because that may have yielded some information.
(Although the russian loop would have provided more info). |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:cfe99$46719d5f$cef8887a$15775@TEKSAVVY.COM...
| Quote: |
Jim Oberg wrote:
The Progress engines are controlled by the computers that had crashed.
But can't Progress be controlled directly by the ground, bypassing the
station computers ?
|
Gerstenmeier referred to this in his briefing this afternoon, and it's true
that commands can be sent directly for firings, or programmed firings be
uploaded for timed firings -- but only during Russian Ground Segment
AOS periods. Gerst suggested that such heavy-handed firings could be
developed to desaturate the CMGs when needed, and it would be
a 'rough and ready' kind of operation but might be feasible. But the AOS
requirement would be a real pain to try to operate through. |
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Jim Oberg
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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When I write reboot I mean r-e-b-o-o-t -- dead start with external
mechanical/electrical instigation. The computers were rebooted this
morning, one pair came up synced and ran for seven minutes
before freezing up, the other four powered up but never
flagged 'READY' and were later turned off. Something is VERY
sick within their innards or with their nutrition....
"John Doe" <jdoe@doe.org> wrote >
| Quote: |
Secondly, the media reports are not trustable enough to base our judgement
on the word "reboot". |
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John Doe
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: Re: NY Times, Computer Flaw Could Imperil Space Station |
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Jim Oberg wrote:
| Quote: |
When I write reboot I mean r-e-b-o-o-t --
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But how far into the reboot sequence does it go before problems happen ?
And when it crashes, is it the application which crashes or is it the OS ?
Will HP send a support person to the station to fix this problem ? (as I
recall, HP provided the computers for the russian segment.) (Of course,
that was the real HP, before Carly destroyed the original company).
And during those 7 minutes where it supposedly ran, was it fully
functional with interactions with the USA computers ?
Any change that it is the USA computers feeding the russian ones out of
bound values with the russian side software having alwasy assumed the
USA computers wouldn't send bad data ?
In a recent EVA, didn't they install some external ethernet cable ? What
was this cable for and is it connected to those computers ? Seems to me
that an outdoors ethernet cable might pick up a lot of noise and spikes. |
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